On June 27, 1989, a public debate took place in Vienna, Virginia, between Dr. Edward E. Max and Dr. Duane T. Gish. During this exchange, Max expressed the view that Gish's argument on the second law of thermodynamics is pseudoscientific because it has been consistently stated vaguely (without defining boundaries or specifying the numerical basis for anything). Max then challenged Gish to, in a reasonable period of time, come up with a specific scientific analysis suitable for evaluation by trained experts in thermodynamics.